Page 21 of 48
Re: Glen Campbell and Jimmy Webb
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:14 pm
by Mike Joyce
Hi Cowpoke, You may be right there about Johnny knowing Glen would make a better version of Phoenix, but as you mention, the story by Johnny seems to imply Al de Lory walked out the office with Johnny's test pressing under arm and the Glen version was being played a couple of weeks later. That could not be the case, based on the release dates of Johnny's album and Glen's single release 18 months later.
I was thinking about this last night.
As we know Johnny worked with Jimmy very closely on his next album Rewind which Jimmy wrote 8 tracks for and did the arrangements for the songs. The album was released in July 1967. I find it very unlikely that these two men would not have discussed the fact that Johnny had let Glen have Phoenix, in all that time. Jimmy, as we know from his own mouth, said he heard Phoenix for the first time on the radio and recognised the intro immediately. He was then totally surprised to hear Glen's vocals on the track. Had Johnny's version taken place, wouldn't he have said something like, "Hey Jimmy, you know that song I love "By the time I get to Phoenix", I thought you might be interested to know I gave it to Glen, who I know you like a great deal. He is going to record it, with Al de Lory doing the production, so it should be another big hit for you. I just thought you might like to know that before you hear it on the radio in the near future and wonder how Glen came to record it."
Given the time delay between Johnny's album and Glen's single it just makes more sense to me that his album was on a wall and Glen noticed the track.
Thanks for your research on Johnny's discography Cowpoke.
Re: Glen Campbell and Jimmy Webb
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:01 am
by Cowpoke
Thanks for your reply Mike. You made me close read that quote again. If we put a date on some of these events, the story takes on a different dimension.
Johnny Rivers' album Changes (which included Phoenix and the number 1 hit Poor Side of Town) entered the Top 40 of the Billboard Album charts in February 1966!
The single from that album "Poor Side of Town" only entered the single Top 40 in October 1966. The delay between the release of the album and the single was probably due to the fact that Johnny had a big hit with "Secret Agent Man" (entered single Top 40 in March 1966) and to a lesser degree "I Washed My Hands in Muddy Water" (entered June 1966), taken from the live albums he recorded at the Whiskey A Go-Go during that time.
Johnny's next hit was "Baby I Need Your Lovin'" (February 1967) and after that came "The Tracks of My Tears" (June 1967) which both ended up on the Rewind album which entered the Top 40 album charts in July 1967.
Probably around July 1967 Pat Boone released By The Time I Get to Phoenix (per former forum member Windbag KOA's research, thank you where ever you are). Glen's version was released in October 1967.
So... there is a lot of time between the release of the Changes album and Glen recording Phoenix (about a year and a half). Because Johnny mentions giving Al de Lory a test pressing of the record I got the impression that the album had not even been released yet. It also doesn't seem likely that after having two hits from the next album Johnny would have gone back to a song from his previous album to release it as his new single. Could it have been that Johnny knew it was a hit song, but that it needed a singer like Glen Campbell to make it really happen?
Re: Glen Campbell and Jimmy Webb
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:18 pm
by Mike Joyce
Hi Cowpoke, Yes I had read that article before sometime ago. It was interesting what you said about the third option of this story. That rings a bell with me, I must have read it somewhere as well.
Obviously Johnny seems sincere in his telling of the story, but I find it very difficult to accept (with respect to Dee) that a company that Johnny runs which makes it's living by producing hit songs would so easily give away, what Jonny considered to be a smash hit song. To say "How many hits can you have at once" seems a bit ludicrous when you consider that Johnny released 6 songs in 1964, 5 songs in 1965, 3 songs in 1966 and 3 songs in 1967. In 1968 that reduced to 2 songs which didn't even hit the top 40. In 1969 he released 3 songs which also only climbed to the top 50. If Johnny really thought it was a smash hit song why not hold on to it and release it later that year on early in the new year. Macey Lipman certainly thought Johnny was crazy to let that song go. I won't repeat his language here of course.
Re: Glen Campbell and Jimmy Webb
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:57 am
by Cowpoke
Thanks for the link Dee. I will listen to it asap.
If I may, I would like to get back to the backstory of By the Time I Get to Phoenix. In 2014 I read about Johnny River's account of the events for the first time in this interview.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-rago ... 21991.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here the quote about Phoenix.
Marc Gordon, who managed The 5th Dimension sent me this tape because I guess they had been associated with Motown and I guess Jimmy Webb had been as well. He'd been writing some songs over there, so Mark sent me a tape of about ten songs and he said, "You've got to listen to this guy, he's a great songwriter, he's really unusual," so I had this tape and I was listening to it, but the songs were not my kind of thing. They weren't real bluesy or funky rock, they were more pop and Broadway sounding. It's really funny--you need to listen to all the songs on a tape because you never know. I started to get up and turn it off a couple of times but I went, "Eh, I'm going to keep listening," and the last song on that tape was "By The Time I Get To Phoenix." So when I heard that, I went, "Whoa, what a great song!" It just jumped out because it was such a great classic song. I called Mark Gordon and said, "Hey, I want to meet this guy." He gave me Jimmy's number and I called him and said, "Hey, let's get together, I want to hear some more of your stuff. I really loved your tape and like your style of writing, especially this song, 'By The Time I Get To Phoenix.' I want to cut it."
Jimmy and I got together and went into the studio and I recorded "By The Time I Get To Phoenix," the first recording of it. It was actually on the same album that "Poor Side Of Town" was on called Changes. Marty Paich did the string charts for it. But we thought that "...Phoenix" sounded a little bit too much like "Poor Side Of Town," it had major seven chord changes and stuff, so we decided not to release it and we put out "Baby I Need Your Loving" instead, which took off like a skyrocket. But in the meantime, I was sitting there with this song that I knew was a hit and I had signed Jimmy, I bought his contract from a little studio he was signed to with a bunch of his songs and we had started working together. But I had this song that I knew was a hit and since "Baby I Need Your Loving" was going on the charts, I couldn't release it. So I was driving down the road and I heard "Gentle On My Mind" by Glen Campbell, which was just coming off the charts, and I went, "Wow, Glen Campbell." Glen and I used to hang out together; he and I and Jimmy Bowen were old buddies in the early sixties. We hung out around LA and Sunset Boulevard at a publishing company up there, trying to get stuff going. So I called Glen's producer at Capitol--I had a little office down at liberty records because I'd already started Soul City and they were distributed by Liberty Records--and I asked Al De Lory to come in. I said, "I've got a great song for Glen Campbell," and I had my test pressing for my album. "...Phoenix" was the first cut on it, and I put it on and he goes, "Whoa, what a great song, Glen could really do that," and I said, "Well here's my test pressing," because I published the song. I remember as he left, he put that thing under his arm and walked out of there, and Macey Lipman, who was running the company for us, was across the hall in another office and he came running over and said, "Why in the [...] did you give him that song, man? That would've been a smash!" I said, "Macey, how many hits can you have at once? I just came off of 'Poor Side Of Town,' 'Baby I Need Your Loving' is heading to the top ten, I think that'd be a great song for Glen." Sure enough, about two weeks later, I hear Glen's record on the radio--"By The Time I Get To Phoenix"--and it was an exact copy of mine. It was his first number one record. That really was what got Jimmy Webb going.
What I notice is that Johnny gives a lot of details about what happened exactly. And he really seems to have known Glen from his early days in LA. So, in trying to reconstruct what really happened, I now think we cannot dismiss Johnny's story that easily. What do you think Mike? Interesting stuff this!
Re: Glen Campbell and Jimmy Webb
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:46 am
by Randy
I enjoyed listening to that Jimmy Webb interview Dee. I believe his tribute tour is most admirable. I know Glen would be proud , as they both have immense respect for one another.
Re: Glen Campbell and Jimmy Webb
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:51 pm
by Dee
The Ray Carr radio interview with Jimmy Webb
"2/16/2016 Jimmy Webb- America's Songwriter - Complete interview"
at
http://www.raycarram.com/userfiles/file ... chives.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Tremendous interview conducted by Ray Carr. He and Jimmy Webb touch on a variety of topics:
- The Frank Sinatra album that sadly didn't happen because of Mr. Sinatra's failing health
Johnny Rivers
"Phoenix" and "Wichita Lineman"
Success happened so quickly
"The Worst That Could Happen"
Weird decisions made by record companies
Brooklyn Bridge
Independent record labels
Favorites artists JW listens to
George Martin; from the horse's mouth: the relationship between Pet Sounds and Sgt. Pepper
Why JW loves "divine mistakes" on recordings from the 60s, 70s and 80s
Michael Feinstein and the pure experience of the "Only One Life" album
The Glen Campbell Years tribute show - Glen as a prominent force in rock 'n' roll (as important as Chuck Berry, Paul McCartney...)
Re: Glen Campbell and Jimmy Webb
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:52 pm
by Dee
All I can say is destiny or God ensured that the right song got to the right singer!
You all won't believe this but I came across a 1971 performance by Glen Campbell at the U.S. Army's rest and rehabilitation center at Fort DeRussy in Hawaii. He and other artists were giving a concert for guys on leave from Vietnam. Glen explains in the video he ended up performing one song he "kinda felt has special meaning for these guys": "Galveston". He sang a shorter version of it, the song's tempo similar to the single/album release.
RE: Rivers seeking to get credit... Don't we wish we had been flies on the wall back then? I don't believe these LA artists and producers in the sixties thought that way.
Re: Glen Campbell and Jimmy Webb
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:14 pm
by Randy
Nah , I don't consider it a viable theory. I consider the comment "seeking to get credit" a cheap shot. Johnny clearly says Glen was a friend, and later on says Glen and Al Delory were good buddies. What credit is he seeking to get? So 30 years later , he can answer a question, when asked about it during an interview? Maybe you know something we don't Mike, but I doubt it. And saying he wasn't selfish doesn't diminish that cheap shot.
Re: Glen Campbell and Jimmy Webb
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:36 pm
by Cowpoke
That is a viable theory Mike! I just remembered there is even a third story here about how Glen got to know the song. Glen said he played on Pat Boone's version of the song!
Here's another great interview with Jimmy Webb... Glen gets mentioned a lot!
http://www.kentucky.com/entertainment/m ... 79082.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Glen Campbell and Jimmy Webb
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 2:04 pm
by Mike Joyce
I was thinking last night, both versions may in fact be true. If Glen had seen the album and the song Phoenix on the listing then listened to it, it would stand to reason, that he would talk to his producer Al De Lory and ask him to get the song for him to record. Al De Lory would have then spoken with Johnny Rivers who owned the song and asked if they would let them have the song so Glen could have a go with it. Johnny I am sure was generous enough to let the song go, but I think it was a phone call from Al requesting the song that was more likely to be the case. Johnny, I think, saying he had the song and knew it would be a hit so rang Al to offer it to Glen, is in my opinion seeking to get credit for what turned out to be a perfect match of a song with a singer. Never the less, Johnny wasn't selfish and letting the song go to Glen, as we know produced a great partnership between Jimmy and Glen.
The same situation applies to Don Ho, and Galveston, as I mentioned before. If Don hadn't given his record of the song to Glen, I wonder if Glen would have found it at a later date or would that song never have made it on to a Glen Campbell album at all. What a tragedy that would have been. Slow or fast.